"Building Ram Temple can be an issue for andolan,
INTERVIEW with BJP vice president Uma Bharti for Teekhi
Baat on IBN7
PC: I know you from many years,
but i cannot understand your identity now, are you leader of UP, Madhya
Pradesh, or national leader or a sanyasin, what are you?
UB: During introduction you used
the word bhootpoorva for me, i object to the word bhoot, i am not a bhoot
PC:You are not a bhoot you seem
to be a sadhvi
UB: I am not bhoot, secondly,
some things happened and i was out of BJP for five and a half years, hence
there is a certain distance. Individual relations are all right, but at the
level of the organisation,i have kept my involvement at the level of Ganga
abhiyaan, i was running this abhiyan earlier too, and by co-incidence, BJP has
formed a Ganga bachao cell with Rajnathji as its chief, as soon as i came to
BJP, Rajnathji gave me charge of the cell, at that time Nitin Gadkariji was
president. Hence, you are right, am associated with issues but at a distance
from the organisation activities of BJP.
PC:You think that a certain
distance developed with the party ideology, leaders, as you were out of party
for 5.5 years. Because the distance grew, you are not fitting in now.
UB: There was no distance from
the ideology. There was distance from individuals and some distance from
organisation. That continues now, as in organization functions held today, my
participation is hardly there. But if i want any leader to be associated with
Ganga abhiyan, i get that done.
PC: Which means your
responsibility to make “pavitra” the Ganga river.
UB: Such a word cannot be used,
Ganga is already ‘pavitra’, we have made it unclean. I cannot say that i will
make the ganga ‘pavitra’, i cannot use such a word.
PC: But you can clean it
UB: Ganga should remain perennial
and positive and we hand it over to the younger generations.
PC:But now things have started
getting unclean in your party, somebody is made PM, sometimes you say
something, you are VP, you will be a part of the campaign,do you feel that at
leader should lead the party, or whether people will vote your you in the
UB: BJP is a ‘Rajnatik dal’
(political formation), and today it is difficult to keep away from politics
because it affects everybody, it has affected your family, people from families
work in the political party, hence the party is a big family.
PC:Today your party has no
ideology, what is the difference between economic policies of your party and
Congress party. They don’t talk about article 350, Ayodhya. Do you feel that
for a party to win, ideology is not important, but one should have leadership,
do you feel that you cannot win elections without a leader.
UB:For BJP, the Ramjanmabhoomi
subject is a subject of ‘aastha’ (faith), be it article 370, uniform civil
code, these are those issues which everybody knows that unless BJP gets a clear
majority on its own, these cannot be implemented.
PC: These won’t be your election
UB:These are issues of faith.
Building a Ram temple on Ramjanmabhoomi should not be an election issue. I am
one among those who says this always. This can be an issue of andolan.
PC:Do you think that the party
needs leaders like Atalji today, a leader like Atalji, Indiraji, who have won
elections. A national leader.
UB: Manytimes, ideology, or a
group also does work of a leader. The unity of group and its thoughts does
the work of a leader many times.
PC: You think you don't need a
leader now, ideology
UB: Am not saying that.
PC: One cannot understand what
your group is today, one group is here, one is there.
UB: BJP parliamentary board will
take a decision whether to go in for elections by projecting a leader, or as a
group. I have no say on this issue.
PC: You are not a candidate
UB: You can say that too, as as a
common party worker cannot have a say on these issue.
PC: One school of thought says
Modi should be declared PM candidate before elections, people also say that
central parliamentary board will decide. Do you feel that there is such rush to
be prime ministerial candidate in your party, hence the difficulty, everyone is
a Prime Minister, there is no worker.
UB: There is no race, there are
so many capable people that anybody can become Prime Minister among them. I
will repeat what Rajnathji said in Goa, that Modiji is BJP most popular leader
among the people. One cannot deny that, hence this fact must be seen with
utmost respect. The parliamentary board will decide whom to project leader, i
am not a member of the parliamentary board, hence what can i say on that issue.
PC:Once you had said, we read in
papers, that how can Modiji become PM candidate, can people who can collect
crowd become leaders. You said the biggest leader is Advaniji.
UB:The interview you are
referring to, had not shown my answer in full. In response to the question i
said that popularity in public alone cannot be the barometer, good governance
is also a factor. This version was edited. And after that i decided never to
give an interview to that english channel.
PC: You said, Varun Gandhi
UB:Then while speaking you said
that while deciding a prime ministerial candidate one has to see his capability
had delivering good governance.
PC: But all your chief ministers
are working well, Modiji, Shivraj Chauhan, he has won, he took over from your
and won, and it seems he may win the third time, Raman Singh too is working
well. Then speaking of governance, all these should be candidates.
UB: Now, in Madhya Pradesh,
Chattisgarh, Gujarat, the state of Gujarat cannot be compared to any other
state, even any other BJP compared state. Because in Gujarat, if your leave our
1 to 1.5 years of Shankar Singh Vaghela’s tenure, then since 1995 BJP government
is there in Gujarat, Modiji has taken oath four times and we have won elections
three times under his leadership. On the point of good governance, only
development is not a factor, good law and order is also a part, corruption free
system is a part, on all these parameters, Goa and Gujarat have got better
acceptance as compared to all other states. I can say that Goa is a small
state, with a lot of educated people. An educated person is not a victim of
corruption, he contests many times. But in Gujarat, its not merely about
development, it is about Good law and order and corruption free system.
PC: On count of good governance,
you find Modi to be leading.
UB: Gujarat is ahead as far as
good governance is concerned and that has been given by Narendra Modi. I will
repeat what i said earlier, the country is a victim of feeling unsafe, people
are in tension due to corruption, inflation, China scares us, our soldiers are
beheaded, women are scared to come out of their houses. In all this
people feel that Narendra Modi can give guarantee of security.
PC: Do you feel Modi would have
been as popular if 2002 riots would not have happened and you must be in pain
because he didn't apologize for what happened in Gujarat. You too think that
what happened in 2002 was not right for the country.
UB: I feel that kind of
politicization, and vote bank politics done by political parties on the issue
of riots is wrong.
PC: Won't you criticize the riots
UB: No, the anti Sikh riots in
our country were bigger, in which 10 to 20 thousand Sikhs were charred.
PC: Manmohan Singh has apologized
but you are even scared of apologizing stating that you have done no wrong.
UB: Even the 50,000 deaths in
Kedar ghati in Uttaranchal have been due to negligence of the minister.
PC: Was he the one who did the
UB: No, may be, you don't know
the whole issue, there were heavy rains for three days, but the Kedar valley
was not evicted. This was due to wrong decision, otherwise not even one person
would have died in the disaster if people would have been taken out on the
16th, people died on 17th morning and it was raining on 14th, 15th, 16th.
PC: That was a natural disaster,
but the kind of communal violence which happened in Gujarat
UB: If the government does not
function well, it should certainly apologize.
PC: Do you feel it was good that
1000 people were allowed to die
UB: If feel you have taken
religion as a basis for counting dead bodies, a lot many Hindu also died.
PC: Both died, if 1000 Hindu,
died our1000 Muslim brothers also died. You say there was reaction to what
happened in Godhra, but one should apologize for what happened in the regime,
should not have happened.
UB: There is a political motive
behind getting this said. It is about Hindu Muslim vote bank politics.
PC: You also do vote bank
politics, the reason behind projecting Modi is that he is a Hindu Samrat.
UB: Am not known to be a cunning
leader but let me tell it straight, if you want to get somebody to say
something with a political motive in mind,then its answer would also be
PC: Which means you won’t
apologize because it is politics, even if wrong right would have been done?
UB: There is a politics behind
PC: Neither Sangh people
apologize, neither your leaders apologize, Atalji may be would have apologized,
currently he doesn't speak, hence he has not apologized.
UB: Wrong and right is such an
issue that even if one apologizes the issue would not be resolved.
PC: Umaji you have been chief
minister, then you have been out of party, dont you think that your party has
no issue, hence it is taking up the issue of nationalism, you want to win
elections at communal level by projecting Modi, hence by saying that vote for
Modi if you have to save Hindutva. You have no issue, your party cannot speak
on corruption, because your party leaders are facing corruption charges. You
too have said that Muslim brothers can only be saved by a Hinduvadi neta, is
this a threat or an enticement.
UB: Neither threat or enticement,
it is the truth which i have said because fear was bred on me and people like
us, and when people find that we are not like that , there would be no reason
PC: Hence they should vote for you
UB: Let them not vote, but try to
understand. Even now i have said that don't think that Muslim would immediately
start voting for BJP, to strengthen trust will take time because it has been
broken over a period of 50-60 years, and a lot of machinery and propoganda was
used for the same against us.
PC: But you dont change your
langugage, you are MLA from UP, Vinay Katiyar, you go there and after wearing
Bhagwa clothes say that temple would be built there, (mandir wahi banayenge),
one fears that your issue is not development but just to make Ram Temple. What
was the need of giving charge to Amit Shah.
UB: Amit Shah is general
secretary of Bharatiya Janta Party, he had to get charge of some state,
PC: He could have been given West
UB: You call Rajnathji for this,
PC: This is Rajnathji’s decision
PC: You don’t have to say
anything about it
UB: No, i cannot speak in defence
UB: Am not party spokesperson. I
can speak on ideology.
PC: What is your party ideology,
UB: Our ideology is to give
corruption free system to the country, a system which gives assurance of
security because Congress is a communal party which does politics if corruption
and vote bank, country should be free of it.
PC: In Karnataka too there was a
lot of corruption under BJP tenure, in MP, Rajasthan charges have been
levelled.Which leader of yours is not tainted by the corruption charge.
UB: When corruption charges were
levelled against Yediurappaji, we knew if we take his resignation, we will lose
in Karnataka, and we were ready to lose, but did not compromise on the issue of
PC: Now again there are talks of
taking him back in the party.
UB: The talks are not happening
at the party level, i dont know where these talks are on. I have considered
Yadiurappa as a good leader, am pained that corruption charges were levelled
against him, and charges were framed against him, we knew we wil lose Karnataka
if we take his resignation, but we still took his resignation.
PC: Elections would soon happen
in Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, in MP you are not called, your rallies are not
held, in Rajasthan Modiji’s rallies are not held, Shiv Raj Chauhan did not use
Modiji’s photo, do you think that there would be some loss if you would be
called or you feel they can win without you.
UB: I feel it is the last thing,
if Shivraj feels that he can form a government without me, then he should, and
he just wants my co-operation that i should not be seen there, then i won't be
seen at all.
PC: But you still go there
UB: My home is there, i am a
resident of Madhya Pradesh. Am not a rootless leader, i have a root there.
PC: You have no competition with
UB: In my mind, there is no
thought of competition with him.
PC: And posters of Modi were not
UB: I have said, if these leaders
have such self confidence, that they can win elections on their own, then we
will increase that confidence, we will not reduce it.
PC: You have been a chief minister,
is it necessary to put photos of leaders
UB: Now BJP has taken decision,
that in states where we are contesting elections, where the candidates of chief
minister post are announced, we will do all co-operation necessary for them to
win elections. If Shivraj feels me going there is a problem for him, then i
will co operate by not going there.
PC: This is about you but am
speaking about the state policy, in Rajasthan, Modi has not gone, he will go
during Lok Sabha elections. Do you think the practice of using one chief
minister’s photo in some other state’s chief minister’s elections is right. Or
should there be photos of national president, Atalji, Advaniji as earlier has
UB: That is the decision of the
state committee, i cannot say anything, and nobody can be under compulsion. It
is not individual decision, it is state campaigning committee which decides.
PC: Umaji you are an MP from UP,
there is law and order problem in UP, there are rapes, people are dying, Umaji
is silent, there is no protest, no criticism, it seems Akhilesh is your younger
brother and you forgive him, you are not contesting, fighting, because till you
don’t win in UP, you government cannot form.
UB: I go to Vidhan Sabha
constituency Charkhari, i meet people, i love people of Charkhari, i go
to Vidhan Sabha session, and if there is an issue of Vidhan Sabha, i meet
officers, ministers. Secondly, in response to question you asked, the elections
of 2012 in Uttar Pradesh, in Vidhan Sabha elections, four people were announced
for the post of chief minister, Rajnathji, Kalrajji, Uma Bharti, Surya
Pratap Shahi, these four faces, even then i said don't do this. I am born in
Madhya Pradesh and can contest lok sabha elections from Uttar Pradesh as Lok
Sabha elections are held on national issues. I was not ready to contest Vidhan
Sabha elections, and Nitin Gadkari and Arun Jaitley told me, that i can resign
after elections, but i liked Charkhari so much, that i didnt leave it.
PC: But Shivraj is doing good
work, as the party thinks. Now there is no leader in UP, Rajnathji has become
national president. Dont you think if you go in UP, there would be no
competition here, if somebody thinks like that. Mandir is going to be built
there, votes are going to come from there, but why Uma Bharati is scared of
going to UP.
UB: I am not scared, i don't have
a responsibility because of which i can say that i have come to UP to struggle.
PC: You have Ganga responsiblity.
UB: I am working full time on
Ganga. But you have to see, Ganga is an issue in which Azam Khan, Nitish Kumar,
Vijay Bahuguna is with us.
PC: But you dont want to take
charge of leadership in UP
UB: No, if the party gives me
charge, i will take it.
PC: You will contest Lok Sabha
elections in UP, if they party tells you to.
PC: You yourself have the
inclination to contest it from there
UB: From wherever Rajnathji says.
PC: If Rajnathji says you wont
contest from MP
UB: From whereever Rajnathji says
PC:What would you prefer
UB: I have no preference, gods
grace is on me that i can contest elections from any state.
PC: Am saying UP, because you
contested election from Bundhelkhand, why don't you struggle for forming
Bundelkhand as a separate state.
UB: There is no need for struggle
there as people have already formed their mind that Bundhelkhand should be
separate state.Whenever there is an announcement, Bundhelkhand would have
priority. There are technical reasons why it is not happening. A part of MP is
also being demanded in Bundhelkhand. And MP people are not ready for inclusion
i separate state of Bundhelkhand. If that issue of resolved, like in Jharkhand,
Orissa and MP were given up, the same day Bundhelkhand would be formed.
PC: Mood is in favour of small
state, Mayawati said there should be four small states. You support it, but
your party leaders are not taking any initiative at national level.
UB: No, the reason for the same
is that the state division should be done taking all things into consideration.
PC: The issue is of division of
UB: A part of UP will become
PC: Ajit Singh is demanding Harit
UB: Whenever we talk of formation
of a new state, then the geographic, economic, employment, all these things
have to be seen. Mayawati’s announcement was political.
PC: Uma Bharati has not been able
to define her role till now
UB: Am working for Ganga.
PC: You dont know what work you
have in BJP
UB: That Rajnathji will decide
PC: Till now you have no work
UB: Till now i have no work
PC: And you dont want to, you are
with the ideology, but yet to connect with the party.
UB: That is not the case. I am
fully connected with the ideology, and i have good relations with BJP leaders,
and it is co-incidence that Rajnathji is president, and since younger days i
have had brother, sister relations with him, and those are individual
relations. But it is true that i have no assigned work in BJP organisation, i
am just working on the Ganga abhiyan.
PC: You had left the parivaar,
now members of family are a bit hesitant to accept you
UB: I do not think acceptance is
an issue, may be there are some reservations from my side too. I dont
take much interest in other issues except Ganga.
PC: What is your future, if you
are not taking interest in party, only on the issue of Ganga, are you are
leader or a sanyasin.
UB: Ganga is the identity of the
PC: Uma Bharti is not working to
make Modi Prime Minister, you say the one who party selects would become. UP,
you are not taking interest, what does Uma Bharti want to do.
UB: For cow, poor and Ganga, i
will do efforts as much as i can.
PC: Not for BJP
UB: When BJP says i will do.
PC: Lets see, many people are
scared also when you may say something. Thank you for coming to your studio.