"Building Ram Temple can be an issue for andolan,
INTERVIEW with BJP vice president Uma Bharti for Teekhi Baat on IBN7
PC: I know you from many years, but i cannot understand your identity now, are you leader of UP, Madhya Pradesh, or national leader or a sanyasin, what are you?
UB: During introduction you used the word bhootpoorva for me, i object to the word bhoot, i am not a bhoot (meaning ghost).
PC:You are not a bhoot you seem to be a sadhvi
UB: I am not bhoot, secondly, some things happened and i was out of BJP for five and a half years, hence there is a certain distance. Individual relations are all right, but at the level of the organisation,i have kept my involvement at the level of Ganga abhiyaan, i was running this abhiyan earlier too, and by co-incidence, BJP has formed a Ganga bachao cell with Rajnathji as its chief, as soon as i came to BJP, Rajnathji gave me charge of the cell, at that time Nitin Gadkariji was president. Hence, you are right, am associated with issues but at a distance from the organisation activities of BJP.
PC:You think that a certain distance developed with the party ideology, leaders, as you were out of party for 5.5 years. Because the distance grew, you are not fitting in now.
UB: There was no distance from the ideology. There was distance from individuals and some distance from organisation. That continues now, as in organization functions held today, my participation is hardly there. But if i want any leader to be associated with Ganga abhiyan, i get that done.
PC: Which means your responsibility to make “pavitra” the Ganga river.
UB: Such a word cannot be used, Ganga is already ‘pavitra’, we have made it unclean. I cannot say that i will make the ganga ‘pavitra’, i cannot use such a word.
PC: But you can clean it
UB: Ganga should remain perennial and positive and we hand it over to the younger generations.
PC:But now things have started getting unclean in your party, somebody is made PM, sometimes you say something, you are VP, you will be a part of the campaign,do you feel that at leader should lead the party, or whether people will vote your you in the party’s name.
UB: BJP is a ‘Rajnatik dal’ (political formation), and today it is difficult to keep away from politics because it affects everybody, it has affected your family, people from families work in the political party, hence the party is a big family.
PC:Today your party has no ideology, what is the difference between economic policies of your party and Congress party. They don’t talk about article 350, Ayodhya. Do you feel that for a party to win, ideology is not important, but one should have leadership, do you feel that you cannot win elections without a leader.
UB:For BJP, the Ramjanmabhoomi subject is a subject of ‘aastha’ (faith), be it article 370, uniform civil code, these are those issues which everybody knows that unless BJP gets a clear majority on its own, these cannot be implemented.
PC: These won’t be your election issues?
UB:These are issues of faith. Building a Ram temple on Ramjanmabhoomi should not be an election issue. I am one among those who says this always. This can be an issue of andolan.
PC:Do you think that the party needs leaders like Atalji today, a leader like Atalji, Indiraji, who have won elections. A national leader.
UB: Manytimes, ideology, or a group also does work of a leader. The unity of group and its thoughts does the work of a leader many times.
PC: You think you don't need a leader now, ideology
UB: Am not saying that.
PC: One cannot understand what your group is today, one group is here, one is there.
UB: BJP parliamentary board will take a decision whether to go in for elections by projecting a leader, or as a group. I have no say on this issue.
PC: You are not a candidate
UB: You can say that too, as as a common party worker cannot have a say on these issue.
PC: One school of thought says Modi should be declared PM candidate before elections, people also say that central parliamentary board will decide. Do you feel that there is such rush to be prime ministerial candidate in your party, hence the difficulty, everyone is a Prime Minister, there is no worker.
UB: There is no race, there are so many capable people that anybody can become Prime Minister among them. I will repeat what Rajnathji said in Goa, that Modiji is BJP most popular leader among the people. One cannot deny that, hence this fact must be seen with utmost respect. The parliamentary board will decide whom to project leader, i am not a member of the parliamentary board, hence what can i say on that issue.
PC:Once you had said, we read in papers, that how can Modiji become PM candidate, can people who can collect crowd become leaders. You said the biggest leader is Advaniji.
UB:The interview you are referring to, had not shown my answer in full. In response to the question i said that popularity in public alone cannot be the barometer, good governance is also a factor. This version was edited. And after that i decided never to give an interview to that english channel.
PC: You said, Varun Gandhi gathers crowd.
UB:Then while speaking you said that while deciding a prime ministerial candidate one has to see his capability had delivering good governance.
PC: But all your chief ministers are working well, Modiji, Shivraj Chauhan, he has won, he took over from your and won, and it seems he may win the third time, Raman Singh too is working well. Then speaking of governance, all these should be candidates.
UB: Now, in Madhya Pradesh, Chattisgarh, Gujarat, the state of Gujarat cannot be compared to any other state, even any other BJP compared state. Because in Gujarat, if your leave our 1 to 1.5 years of Shankar Singh Vaghela’s tenure, then since 1995 BJP government is there in Gujarat, Modiji has taken oath four times and we have won elections three times under his leadership. On the point of good governance, only development is not a factor, good law and order is also a part, corruption free system is a part, on all these parameters, Goa and Gujarat have got better acceptance as compared to all other states. I can say that Goa is a small state, with a lot of educated people. An educated person is not a victim of corruption, he contests many times. But in Gujarat, its not merely about development, it is about Good law and order and corruption free system.
PC: On count of good governance, you find Modi to be leading.
UB: Gujarat is ahead as far as good governance is concerned and that has been given by Narendra Modi. I will repeat what i said earlier, the country is a victim of feeling unsafe, people are in tension due to corruption, inflation, China scares us, our soldiers are beheaded, women are scared to come out of their houses. In all this people feel that Narendra Modi can give guarantee of security.
PC: Do you feel Modi would have been as popular if 2002 riots would not have happened and you must be in pain because he didn't apologize for what happened in Gujarat. You too think that what happened in 2002 was not right for the country.
UB: I feel that kind of politicization, and vote bank politics done by political parties on the issue of riots is wrong.
PC: Won't you criticize the riots
UB: No, the anti Sikh riots in our country were bigger, in which 10 to 20 thousand Sikhs were charred.
PC: Manmohan Singh has apologized but you are even scared of apologizing stating that you have done no wrong.
UB: Even the 50,000 deaths in Kedar ghati in Uttaranchal have been due to negligence of the minister.
PC: Was he the one who did the cloud burst?
UB: No, may be, you don't know the whole issue, there were heavy rains for three days, but the Kedar valley was not evicted. This was due to wrong decision, otherwise not even one person would have died in the disaster if people would have been taken out on the 16th, people died on 17th morning and it was raining on 14th, 15th, 16th.
PC: That was a natural disaster, but the kind of communal violence which happened in Gujarat
UB: If the government does not function well, it should certainly apologize.
PC: Do you feel it was good that 1000 people were allowed to die
UB: If feel you have taken religion as a basis for counting dead bodies, a lot many Hindu also died.
PC: Both died, if 1000 Hindu, died our1000 Muslim brothers also died. You say there was reaction to what happened in Godhra, but one should apologize for what happened in the regime, should not have happened.
UB: There is a political motive behind getting this said. It is about Hindu Muslim vote bank politics.
PC: You also do vote bank politics, the reason behind projecting Modi is that he is a Hindu Samrat.
UB: Am not known to be a cunning leader but let me tell it straight, if you want to get somebody to say something with a political motive in mind,then its answer would also be political.
PC: Which means you won’t apologize because it is politics, even if wrong right would have been done?
UB: There is a politics behind this question
PC: Neither Sangh people apologize, neither your leaders apologize, Atalji may be would have apologized, currently he doesn't speak, hence he has not apologized.
UB: Wrong and right is such an issue that even if one apologizes the issue would not be resolved.
PC: Umaji you have been chief minister, then you have been out of party, dont you think that your party has no issue, hence it is taking up the issue of nationalism, you want to win elections at communal level by projecting Modi, hence by saying that vote for Modi if you have to save Hindutva. You have no issue, your party cannot speak on corruption, because your party leaders are facing corruption charges. You too have said that Muslim brothers can only be saved by a Hinduvadi neta, is this a threat or an enticement.
UB: Neither threat or enticement, it is the truth which i have said because fear was bred on me and people like us, and when people find that we are not like that , there would be no reason for fear.
PC: Hence they should vote for you
UB: Let them not vote, but try to understand. Even now i have said that don't think that Muslim would immediately start voting for BJP, to strengthen trust will take time because it has been broken over a period of 50-60 years, and a lot of machinery and propoganda was used for the same against us.
PC: But you dont change your langugage, you are MLA from UP, Vinay Katiyar, you go there and after wearing Bhagwa clothes say that temple would be built there, (mandir wahi banayenge), one fears that your issue is not development but just to make Ram Temple. What was the need of giving charge to Amit Shah.
UB: Amit Shah is general secretary of Bharatiya Janta Party, he had to get charge of some state,
PC: He could have been given West Bengal
UB: You call Rajnathji for this, not me.
PC: This is Rajnathji’s decision
PC: You don’t have to say anything about it
UB: No, i cannot speak in defence of party.
UB: Am not party spokesperson. I can speak on ideology.
PC: What is your party ideology, BJP ideology.
UB: Our ideology is to give corruption free system to the country, a system which gives assurance of security because Congress is a communal party which does politics if corruption and vote bank, country should be free of it.
PC: In Karnataka too there was a lot of corruption under BJP tenure, in MP, Rajasthan charges have been levelled.Which leader of yours is not tainted by the corruption charge.
UB: When corruption charges were levelled against Yediurappaji, we knew if we take his resignation, we will lose in Karnataka, and we were ready to lose, but did not compromise on the issue of corruption.
PC: Now again there are talks of taking him back in the party.
UB: The talks are not happening at the party level, i dont know where these talks are on. I have considered Yadiurappa as a good leader, am pained that corruption charges were levelled against him, and charges were framed against him, we knew we wil lose Karnataka if we take his resignation, but we still took his resignation.
PC: Elections would soon happen in Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, in MP you are not called, your rallies are not held, in Rajasthan Modiji’s rallies are not held, Shiv Raj Chauhan did not use Modiji’s photo, do you think that there would be some loss if you would be called or you feel they can win without you.
UB: I feel it is the last thing, if Shivraj feels that he can form a government without me, then he should, and he just wants my co-operation that i should not be seen there, then i won't be seen at all.
PC: But you still go there
UB: My home is there, i am a resident of Madhya Pradesh. Am not a rootless leader, i have a root there.
PC: You have no competition with him
UB: In my mind, there is no thought of competition with him.
PC: And posters of Modi were not put up
UB: I have said, if these leaders have such self confidence, that they can win elections on their own, then we will increase that confidence, we will not reduce it.
PC: You have been a chief minister, is it necessary to put photos of leaders
UB: Now BJP has taken decision, that in states where we are contesting elections, where the candidates of chief minister post are announced, we will do all co-operation necessary for them to win elections. If Shivraj feels me going there is a problem for him, then i will co operate by not going there.
PC: This is about you but am speaking about the state policy, in Rajasthan, Modi has not gone, he will go during Lok Sabha elections. Do you think the practice of using one chief minister’s photo in some other state’s chief minister’s elections is right. Or should there be photos of national president, Atalji, Advaniji as earlier has been happening.
UB: That is the decision of the state committee, i cannot say anything, and nobody can be under compulsion. It is not individual decision, it is state campaigning committee which decides.
PC: Umaji you are an MP from UP, there is law and order problem in UP, there are rapes, people are dying, Umaji is silent, there is no protest, no criticism, it seems Akhilesh is your younger brother and you forgive him, you are not contesting, fighting, because till you don’t win in UP, you government cannot form.
UB: I go to Vidhan Sabha constituency Charkhari, i meet people, i love people of Charkhari, i go to Vidhan Sabha session, and if there is an issue of Vidhan Sabha, i meet officers, ministers. Secondly, in response to question you asked, the elections of 2012 in Uttar Pradesh, in Vidhan Sabha elections, four people were announced for the post of chief minister, Rajnathji, Kalrajji, Uma Bharti, Surya Pratap Shahi, these four faces, even then i said don't do this. I am born in Madhya Pradesh and can contest lok sabha elections from Uttar Pradesh as Lok Sabha elections are held on national issues. I was not ready to contest Vidhan Sabha elections, and Nitin Gadkari and Arun Jaitley told me, that i can resign after elections, but i liked Charkhari so much, that i didnt leave it.
PC: But Shivraj is doing good work, as the party thinks. Now there is no leader in UP, Rajnathji has become national president. Dont you think if you go in UP, there would be no competition here, if somebody thinks like that. Mandir is going to be built there, votes are going to come from there, but why Uma Bharati is scared of going to UP.
UB: I am not scared, i don't have a responsibility because of which i can say that i have come to UP to struggle.
PC: You have Ganga responsiblity.
UB: I am working full time on Ganga. But you have to see, Ganga is an issue in which Azam Khan, Nitish Kumar, Vijay Bahuguna is with us.
PC: But you dont want to take charge of leadership in UP
UB: No, if the party gives me charge, i will take it.
PC: You will contest Lok Sabha elections in UP, if they party tells you to.
PC: You yourself have the inclination to contest it from there
UB: From wherever Rajnathji says.
PC: If Rajnathji says you wont contest from MP
UB: From whereever Rajnathji says
PC:What would you prefer
UB: I have no preference, gods grace is on me that i can contest elections from any state.
PC: Am saying UP, because you contested election from Bundhelkhand, why don't you struggle for forming Bundelkhand as a separate state.
UB: There is no need for struggle there as people have already formed their mind that Bundhelkhand should be separate state.Whenever there is an announcement, Bundhelkhand would have priority. There are technical reasons why it is not happening. A part of MP is also being demanded in Bundhelkhand. And MP people are not ready for inclusion i separate state of Bundhelkhand. If that issue of resolved, like in Jharkhand, Orissa and MP were given up, the same day Bundhelkhand would be formed.
PC: Mood is in favour of small state, Mayawati said there should be four small states. You support it, but your party leaders are not taking any initiative at national level.
UB: No, the reason for the same is that the state division should be done taking all things into consideration.
PC: The issue is of division of UP
UB: A part of UP will become Bundelkhand.
PC: Ajit Singh is demanding Harit Pradesh also
UB: Whenever we talk of formation of a new state, then the geographic, economic, employment, all these things have to be seen. Mayawati’s announcement was political.
PC: Uma Bharati has not been able to define her role till now
UB: Am working for Ganga.
PC: You dont know what work you have in BJP
UB: That Rajnathji will decide
PC: Till now you have no work
UB: Till now i have no work
PC: And you dont want to, you are with the ideology, but yet to connect with the party.
UB: That is not the case. I am fully connected with the ideology, and i have good relations with BJP leaders, and it is co-incidence that Rajnathji is president, and since younger days i have had brother, sister relations with him, and those are individual relations. But it is true that i have no assigned work in BJP organisation, i am just working on the Ganga abhiyan.
PC: You had left the parivaar, now members of family are a bit hesitant to accept you
UB: I do not think acceptance is an issue, may be there are some reservations from my side too. I dont take much interest in other issues except Ganga.
PC: What is your future, if you are not taking interest in party, only on the issue of Ganga, are you are leader or a sanyasin.
UB: Ganga is the identity of the country,
PC: Uma Bharti is not working to make Modi Prime Minister, you say the one who party selects would become. UP, you are not taking interest, what does Uma Bharti want to do.
UB: For cow, poor and Ganga, i will do efforts as much as i can.
PC: Not for BJP
UB: When BJP says i will do.
PC: Lets see, many people are scared also when you may say something. Thank you for coming to your studio.