Monday, June 11, 2012

Teekhi Baat with Arvind Kejrewal / June 02, 2012 on IBN7

Our guest for today on Teekhi Baat is senior member of team Anna, Arvind Kejrewal.

PC: Tell me one thing, team Anna andolan has been running for a while now, from how many days are you running it.

AK: For more than one year.

PC: Then why after one year did you have to make Prime Minister your target. This new strategy that you have adopted of starting from up, earlier you started from down. Now is there politics behind blaming the Prime Minister, or you have some evidence,

AK: Can you see politics

PC: I am asking you, this is my question. I am a bit confused

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AK: Last year, such a big andolan was held. People from all over the country came out on the road. We had full faith in our democracy. We had full faith that after so many people coming on to the roads, the law will definitely see the light of the day. Even after that there was betrayal, all parties together sitting in the parliament betrayed. We thought a lot why such a thing happened, then two things came forth, one is that in the central cabinet of ministers, out of 34, 15 are such people, against whom serious allegations of corruption have been levelled. If Jan Lokpal bill comes, out of these 15, 13-14 at least will go to jail. Then we felt that this is the reason

PC: Ministers are getting it stalled?

AK: Ministers will not let it come, because if it comes , then they will go to jail.

PC: Now how did you attach the name of the Prime Minister?

AK: Second point we saw the parliament, 162 in Lok Sabha, 39 in Rajya Sabha there are people who will go straight to jail if Lokpal comes. Then a feeling arose till the cabinet ministers and parliament are not cleaned up, it is useless to talk and think about Lokpal.

PC: But Arvindbhai, this you knew from before that so many people are criminals, reports keep on coming, even election commission releases one, how many are facing criminal cases, you attention did not go to that?

AK: We hoped that we need a law against corruption and if the people of the nation come out on the streets, then they will do it. But now it seems that how will they beat their own legs with a stick, earlier we used to feel, that if it hits their vote bank, then they will do it. Now we began understanding that vote is a later issue first they will fight for their lives. If they go to jail, their property is confiscated, their jobs are gone, minister ship is gone, then they will be left nowhere. Now, it seems that till they are not cleaned up, and the right people not come into parliament and cabinet, then asking for Lokpal..

PC: The question is that in the past one year Annaji wrote two three letters, in which Prime Minister is honest, even told verbally. First you spoke with confidence about the Prime Minister, now suddenly you feel that the Prime Minister is also in the same list, there is a disconnect somewhere, inconsistency.

AK: Please see, we respect our Prime Minister very much, the image of the Prime Minister is very good, but when we started seeing the works of all the ministries one by one, then report of CAG came forth, in which it was stated that when the Prime Minister was the coal minister, that time so many scams happened in the coal ministry, and from the office of the Prime Minister,

PC: Nothing could happen without his signature

AK: A loss of 2 lakh crore, happened because of the Prime Minister’s signatures

PC: 1

AK: Even if 50,000 crore is considered, that is not less.

PC: Even five rupees is not less, people get three year sentences for the same

AK: Hence, such a big scam happened during the Prime Ministers tenure, we were only saying that an independent probe should be conducted. Yesterday, Annaji said in a statement why the Prime Minister is fearing from an independent probe. He says that he is innocent and would quit political life, then let the probe happen. They are not letting the probe happen, and are saying that will quit political life. Hence we feel that the Prime Minister is lying. Let an independent probe happen. If today there had been a Lokpal, that is why they are not passing it. If today there would have been Lokpal, ‘toh doodh ka doodh, paani ka paani ho jaata’

PC: Like you said earlier, every political party betrayed you on Lokpal. That no political party want it

AK: Neither the Congress wants, nor the BJP, SP, BSP, DMK, AIDMK, Trinamool, nobody wants.

PC: It was printed in newspapers; I also sent an sms to you regarding the same that BJP leaders said in party meeting that a joint select committee has been formed, which has been formed taking your opinion, this statement is on the record.

AK: It is false.

PC: But you ignored

AK: Am denying it today.

PC: Do you mean to say that no leader of BJP talked to you regarding joint select committee

AK: No, no permission was taken from us regarding the same.

PC: Am asking whether they spoke to you or not on this issue

AK: After that Arun Jaitleyji had called, when at night select committee had been formed, after that he said that select committee has been formed, and I am its member, that’s it.

PC: But you did not speak anything about the select committee till today, you reject or accept it.

AK: We are saying time and again, when we spoke regarding the fifteen ministers, our press conference had started from that, we said that they sent it to the select committee, now they would not pass any law. First they sent it to standing committee, then to select committee, they are sending it to the tenth committee, we have no belief on it.

PC: Hence joint select committee

AK: We are against it, no leader told us before the formation

PC: They had informed

AK: We were informed that select committee has been formed and I am its member, that’s it. They had called me and Prashant Bhushan both.

PC: Tell me people say, because you also fight among yourselves, when a team runs there are fights. “Bartan bajte to democracy hain’

AK: Bartan bajne ko hee democracy kehte hain

PC: When you make some allegation, then Anna makes a statement that he does not agree. Hegde saab says that he considers the Prime Minister as honest.

AK: And then he says that Arvind is dictatorial, see how much democracy we have. We speak among the public,

PC: There is a controversy over whether Anna wrote a letter to you or no. What do you say, whether a letter was written on how your accounts should be in order

AK: Annaji says that he has not written a letter. I say I have not received the letter. Indian Express got the letter from somewhere. Now the Indian Express people get a e-mail from somewhere, a letter from somewhere, now I don’t understand this Indian Express

PC: But newspapers got the letter, we too got

AK: You go the letter but you did not make it public

PC: No, because..

AK: Because all the concerned people denied, nobody could confirm. When Annaji is saying that he has not written, then how can you say. Prabhuji, today is the time of electronics, you give me your signatures, I can make any letter with your signatures and print it. He never signed such a letter. There is no such letter.

PC: Kiran Bedi e mail

AK: Kiran Bedi says that she has written no e mail, Anna is saying that he has received no e mail. Where is the e mail

PC: Is there is strategy to defame you

AK: Anna is saying that Rs. 100 crore have been spent to break team Anna. Rs. 100 crore and all these newspapers are others are part of the conspiracy.

PC: Rs. 100 crore has been spent that much, will you break with that much money.

AK: They feel that we may split by spending Rs. 100 crore, we wouldn’t.

PC: Now you are saying Prime Minister, many times when there is a attack on team Anna, you get a new issue to divert attention

AK: We have said is that you make a special investigative team, and give them charge of allegations levelled against these 15 ministers as well as the allegations levelled against team Anna till today. Investigate us too. By any investigative team, income tax department, enforcement directorate and everybody else. How much punishment has been written down in law, if there is any discrepancy on our party, give us double that punishment. If we don’t fear investigation then why does the Prime Minister fear, ‘ Seena chauda karke keh rahe hain aap humari jaanch kar lijiye”

PC: Let me talk like Devil Advocate, if anybody gets up tomorrow and says that the Prime Minister is so and so, and the other is so and so without any evidence and if on that basis can will enquires be held against the Prime Minister all the time.

AK: You are saying that there is no evidence, increase the time of the program by one hour, I will keep all evidences in front of you. Are you ready?

PC: You are referring to the CAG report, that is with you

AK: There is the CAG report, the din that had happened in the parliament on this issue, exposes made by senior journalists like you till now, if you keep all these things together, then there is an overwhelming prima facie evidence which is required to register an FIR, against the Prime Minister, against the PMO, against the coal department,

PC: Whatever the material, an FIR should be registered against them

AK: You have given coal mines to people who make underwear, you gave it to people who make cassettes. On what basis have you given them, there was no bidding no auction and was given out at throwaway prices. Questions are raised, were they brothers or relatives of someone, if they were relatives they might have been given.

PC: But you did not demand the resignation of the Prime Minister

AK: Why would we want a resignation, BJP people will demand resignation, we are not political people.

PC: You want an independent probe, CBI, which you want to be independent, if CBI is directly reporting to him, don’t you think you should demand resignation.

AK: We don’t want Prime Minister’s resignation, we want a probe. We are not political people. It is the job of the opposition to demand resignation. We are common people of this country, we are suffering from corruption, inflation. If today corruption would have been less, there was no need of increasing cost of petrol by Rs. 7.50. if today petrol is selling for Rs. 77, then there is a tax of Rs. 40 on it. These people steal Rs. 40 worth of tax.

PC: There state government is also included in the same

AK: There is the centre too. Corruption is there in the state and the centre. If there was no corruption, they could have reduced petrol prices by Rs. 20 and it would have been priced at Rs. 57 instead of Rs. 77. It would have been easier for a man to eat bread in the country.

PC: If they withdraw the tax concessions of Rs. 7 lakh crore, then the corruption would be less. You andolan says make it less and then completely finish corruption. It happens stage by stage

AK: Certainly.

PC: But you are speaking about a probe, the Prime Minister, CVC referred the case to CBI, in this country CBI can investigate

AK: Whom does the CBI report to.

PC: This is what I told you earlier and you said that there should be an investigation. It should happen via what medium.

AK: If CBI reports to the Prime Minister, then how can it investigate him

PC: Then why are you not asking for his resignation. There would be an agency in the democratic system, who via the government, will be appointed, can be from some cabinet committee, somebody will sign orders.

AK: Reporting mechanism is not decided via notifications. If CBI comes under the Prime Minister, if CBI takes orders from the Prime Minister, if CBI is under the control of the Prime Minister, then how can CBI investigate the Prime Minister. This any person with normal intelligence will tell that you are fooling us

PC: CVC, comes under Department of Personnel and Training, which comes under the Prime Minister. Independent, leader of the opposition also appoints CVC,

AK: CVC has referred, now it is with the CBI.

PC: CBI reports to the CVC. If you read the Vineet Narain judgement, the rules written down, the reporting structure of the administration is with the CVC.

AK: No

PC: You read it, I have read it before coming, all the investigative progress, like the Supreme Court ordered, in 2g, the CVC will investigate.

AK: Right. Get some retired CVC to your show, they will tell you, take Shankar ssab, Vittal saab, they will tell you that there is zero power of supervising they have over CBI. They can refer the matter, after that CBI gives one page monthly report, what difference does it make.

PC: But they can put a question mark

AK: Please see, if the investigating agency, reports to the Prime Minister on a day to day basis. For example if I am an IPS officer, working for the CBI, then the one who has my promotion, my transfer, my salary, my everything in his hands controls me or the one to whom I sent a one page report.

PC: Transfer and posting DIG and above powers are with CVC

AK: No

PC: You read it, if the CVC does not clear it, till then the appointment cannot happen. Lets talk of some bigger issues, if you have so much of concern, then why did you not like Dr. Swamy register an FIR in court.

AK: There are two things, why we did not go to court, secondly why did we not go to police.

PC: Because Swamiji went to court. You go to police station, you have right as a citizen that you can go to court or police station. Police will refer, then investigation can happen if the case is against an officer above the rank of joint secretary and above. But when the court directs, then there is no need for investigation.

AK: Does the court investigate or give justice.

PC: What happens in the Swamiji case, what is happening pertaining to P. Chidambaram, is happening via the court,

AK: Like Swamiji, when he went to court, the court did not investigate, court does not investigate, court gives justice.

PC: They said make him accused

AK: Court does not investigate, hence when one goes to court, then the court takes help of some investigating agency, tells the investigating agency that you investigate, then that investigating agency investigates, normally court tells the CBI. CBI comes under the Prime Minister. Hence, all the matters which went to the Supreme Court till now, in all those matters, CBI has been asked to investigate and mostly CBI has pushed off those matters. Now, to see, it seems that Raja has gone to jail, Kalmadi has gone to jail, Kanimozhi went to jail, all of them were set free, got bail, and more than half cases

PC: There were behind bars for more than a year. Let CBI or courts do it

AK: There will be no punishment, today I am saying in your program, and call me the day when the judgement comes. When bail happens

PC: Do you believe in court or not

AK: I believe in court, court does not investigate, that is what your viewers need to be explained. They day Kalmadi was bailed, do you know that CBI had not even opposed the bail application that day. What will the court do? If the CBI is not opposing the bail application, then will the judge say oppose it, Judge cannot say that. CBI has hushed off all the matters in court. The matter had gone to the high court in the issue of Scorpene deal, Delhi High Court told CBI, that do the preliminary enquiry, after doing PE, they presented a whishy washy report in court, Prashant Bhushan is tired of telling that please give us a copy of that report, CBI says it is confidential, and a copy of that CBI report went to Abhishek Verma, who was an accused in this case, hence CBI was hand in glove with the accused. Why? Because Pranab Mukherjee was involved in it, CBI cannot conduct an investigation against Pranab Mukherjee, CBI cannot investigate against Manmohan Singh, against Chidambaram

PC: The question is that system, till the lokpal is not formed

AK: That is why we are saying that make Lokpal

PC: But who will make Lokpal

AK: These people will make if the cabinet of ministers is not cleansed, then they people of the country should throw this government away.

PC: But the government is elected by the people

AK: Let’s see, the coming elections of 2014 Prabhuji, will be a revolution, andolan, it will not be a normal election,

PC: Till then there would be attacks on your team, attacks of every type will happen on your team

AK: We are ready to bear the attacks, when we started the andolan, we are ready to bear the attacks, if we were not ready then how would have we started the andolan

PC: But like you were told that put your accounts on your website, and you put it. Many times Kiran Bedi, goes on foreign tours, she also should put how her foreign trips were funded. She should put it how she went, why, you go less, she goes many times. Don’t you think even your members should be transparent, their tours, travel expenses should be on website.

AK: They can put, I will tell them day after tomorrow when I meet them, it is no big thing. But again I am giving open challenge to the government, do investigation of your 15 ministers, investigation of all members of team Anna, and ‘ doodh ka doodh paani ka paani ho jayega’ If we are not scared of investigation, why, because our hearts are clear, why are they fearful of investigation, because, ‘ daal mein kaala hain’.

PC: The question is that system, about which you are taking, till it is not changed, till then the ministers would be there,

AK: Who will change the system,

PC: The public will change the system to whom you are going

AK: Certainly

PC: We have seen what the public has done, till now the elections that have happened, wherever, the same people have come back.

AK: I have said that will have to wait, 2014 elections will be revolutionary. The central parties will not change, faces will not change, system will change.

PC: You think you will do movement against all parties

AK: Lets see what happens, the voice will come from among the people.

PC: From among the people, there should be candidates, you are not going to fight elections

AK: The public will give candidates this time, public will not keep quiet this time.

PC: Will you make your candidates stand from among the public

AK: No, I am not saying that, I am saying that the public will give candidates.

PC: Will give a political candidate

AK: Will give political candidates, certainly something will happen, keep trust and hope

PC: You still trust the political parties that they will put up good candidates

AK: Cannot say what will happen. Now cannot say, but there is so much despair among the public, so much anger, that something will happen, the election of 2014 will not be ordinary.

PC: Hence will your campaign be against Congress or all political parties

AK: We have no enmity against any particular party. Like Gandhiji used to say , “ Papa se ghrina karo, paapi se nahi”. We have no enmity against any party or individual, we have enmity against the system, we are common man, and are troubled because of inflation,

PC: All the people who are fighting against corruption. Earlier, you used to keep some distance from Baba Ramdev, now you are fighting together, so do you feel that every power must get together

AK: All such powers who want to work for building the nation and want to fight against corruption, all will have to come together,

PC: Hence, Baba Ramdev and Anna both will fight against the political system, an start an andolan

AK: Against the system

PC: And you will wait till 2014, for Lokpal bill, not fix any deadline.

AK: They cannot have any deadline,

PC: Earlier you had said that pas till that date, this date

AK: These are milestones, not deadlines, these are milestones, we are not jotishya, we cannot say whether this system will change in two years, or ten years, we can say that

PC: You have no hope from today’s system

AK: Till there is life in this body, we will keep on fighting.

PC: That means you have no hope from today’s system

AK: Today’s politics has become the biggest problem, this has to be changed,

When you will change it, we will do Teekhi Baat with you again. Thank you for coming to our studio.

AK: Thank You, Prabhuji !

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