PC: Your "Rajnitik Prasad" has given a new dimension to Indian politics.Do you like such kind of politics?
LPY: No, no, we never like (such kind of politics), you would have seen in Lok Sabha, people had a feeling that Laloo Yadav would tear the paper and throw it. I am party president and have not teared and thrown papers. The tearing of papers is no reason for delaying the issue (of Lokpal).
PC:I am asking about Rajniti Prasad's rajniti (politics) of tearing papers and entering into a scuffle with the minister, what kind of politics is this?
LPY:Rajniti Prasad got angry and there is a serious reason for his anger, he should not have done it, (the act of tearing papers), I do not approve of it.
PC:It did not happen with your approval.
LPY: No,no, not at all, why benefit would I get by doing this. If I would have torn the papers and this would have become the reason for the Lokpal bill getting delayed, then I would have accepted the charge. Now, Manu Singhviji, I was in the hall, later I was also present in the central hall, Manu Singhviji reversed the whole issue, Muslim reservation, scheduled castes, scheduled tribe, OBC reservation, which I pointed out in Lok Sabha,even there BJP and Congress had removed in minority word from the bill.
PC:The word had been removed before the bill was tabled.
LPY: And remember, the house was adjourned. And after the house was adjourned, they had no way out, and no face, and hence they improvised the bill.
PC: They called you.
LPY: What called, we went, how could we have left this issue, how would have our party left this issue. And hence we went and hence the bill was improvised, and it was passed (the bill), even though BJP, RSS people opposed, it is their birth right.
PC: You voted in favour of the bill.
LPY:Accepted, hence it was passed.
PC:You voted with the government.
LPY: The bill was weak, hence we said that it was no solution. Now Manu Sanghviji said that they have not given any reservation. He talked of representation by rotation, then being angry is natural, but anger should not go to such an extent, the paper should not have been torn, although it had no impact.
PC: Time was wasted.
LPY: I am telling you, this was not the reason.
PC: You wanted some reason to fight, people in opposition are saying that Lalooji is playing Congress's game.
LPY: No,no I know everyone (the opposition) very well, they are just talking to save face. BJP-NDA raised an unnecessary issue.
PC:Who created an unnecessary issue?
LPY: BJP did. And now it is known that Congress party does not have majority there (in Rajya Sabha), hence even if our people would have given vote in support of the Congress party, it would have made no difference. Even if we would have been absent, it would have made no difference. Our straight question was, you have gone in reverse gear on the issue of reservations, hence we have no trust in you. And hence our MP went, and whatever he did, the way to protest could have been different, but the operative part is that it did not affect anything.
PC: Do you think Congress party wanted to pass the bill there.
LPY: Congress party passed the bill, you know.
PC: Not in Lok Sabha but also in Rajya Sabha
LPY: Even here (Rajya Sabha). Yesterday Congress party was sitting (in the house) without any support, they have no majority, and SP cannot go along with BJP, BSP also cannot go with them. There were several contradictions regarding the amendment (of the bill), these inside issues, you all do not know, we know, what is happening there.
PC: People who oppose you are saying whatever you did in the Lok Sabha, you raised the issue of minority, then the amendment happened, and even after that
LPY: Did our four MP's make any difference?
PC:Laloo Yadav's four MP's are "4 pe chalees bhari padne wallah hisaab"
LPY: To hide their mistakes, BJP and other parties
PC:You mean to say Congress party is absolutely clean
LPY:Congress party was demanding, 'yeh dono mile hue hain', Congress and BJP are together, 'aur milke ye sab ram lila ho rahee thee'
PC: People say that like you don't let the women's reservation bill passed, in the same manner you dont want this bill passed
LPY: No,no, the bill is useless, everybody rejected it, it is not a strong bill, we said a lakh times, protested, but it made no impact.
PC: You said that the bill is useless, Jaitley saab also said that the bill is wrong, phoney, then why didn't you oppose it at the introduction stage.
LPY: We opposed, we opposed in the Lok Sabha
PC:No, I am talking of when it was introduced.
LPY:It is not a new bill, bill was passed, adopted by the Lok Sabha, and there were several amendments demanded by the political parties, like armed forces were included, why are you taking armed forces in this, why attention was not paid to this issue, then they agreed, they had made a mistake.
PC: So you feel everywhere there should be reservation.
LPY: Reservation, why not?
PC: You fought over reservations, like Manu Singhvi said there should be no reservation, it should be by rotation, but you should have read the bill, it states that not less than 50 per cent members should belong to scheduled castes, scheduled tribes, women and minority.
LPY: It (reservation) should be on every layer, from the search committee to the Lokpal body, make eight or nine, or ten, improvisation and making law is in your hands, make it 50 per cent.
PC: I had asked Salman Khurshid (Union Law Minister) that which minority would you include in 50 per cent, only four or five people can be included.
LPY: No, no, let me tell you, we are supreme body, i mean parliament, which makes the law, when we are making the law, then we will make it equal, by increasing the members.
PC: It has been written how many members should be there.
LPY: If it is written it will be changed in one minute, it is not a big issue. The main issue is that BJP and their other people who are opposing reservation, they are adamant that we will not allow to give (reservation) to minority and Muslims. This was their strategy, hence they tabled the bill in such a way, even though everybody knew that the Congress has no majority (in the Rajya Sabha)
PC:Even BJP wanted that there should be no minority reservation, Sushmaji said in the house that minority reservation is anti constitutional and should not happen, don't you feel why everywhere reservation, reservation?
LPY: Why not? When there is talk of scheduled caste, scheduled tribe, minority, OBC. It is a wrong thing to oppose reservation, it is being cunning, it is fraud, this nation belongs to everybody, there are 17-18 crore Muslims, there are people from scheduled castes, scheduled tribe, 90 per cent population belongs to these lower castes, wont you give them reservation? and then do you think we will tolerate it?. Yesterday, whatever happened regarding Lokpal bill in Rajya Sabha, Congress did not have the majority.
PC: It is fine to bring you socially and economically backward people, but there is a creamy layer in that too.
LPY:Supreme Court has talked about creamy layer. I want to say via your TV that it should be seen that the minority is included (in Lokpal), when we are forming an organisation, erecting a building, then everybody should have representation, whether he be Hindu, Muslim, Sikh and Christian.
PC:You are such a big leader Lalooji, dont you feel dividing the country, its politics on communal and caste lines
LPY: From where this talk of division is being raised.
PC: Harijan, Scheduled Caste is fine, it was there in our constitution, then you included backward castes via Mandal commission, now minority talks has started, earlier there was no reservation based on religion.
LPY: No, is there is talk of reservation based on religion, is it a government job.
PC: Tomorrow you will say reservation should also be there in judiciary.
LPY: We say, it should be there.
PC: Even doctors now
LPY: Why not, Supreme Court has agreed, that they should get (reservation). It is there is lower judiciary.
PC: Even doctors should be selected on basis of reservation.
LPY: Dcotors are there already, when Mandal commission was implemented, there is already reservation for doctors.
PC: It is there for admissions
LPY: No,no,no,no, it is in appointment, please know it. And why not, you have pushed people to social backwardness, you have snatched away their rights, people are depressed and oppressed.
PC: So many people of lower castes have come up in life, whatever benefits reservation has had, it has happened only for rich.Jagjivan Ram was a big man, his daughter became speaker.
LPY: She became it is natural, she has a vote, Mayawati has votes she is chief minister.
PC: Am talking of others, why there is no reservation for poor people, why not reservation on economic criteria.
LPY: People who are shedding tears for poor people, why not for rickshawwallahs
PC:I am asking you why did not you speak in Parliament in favor of reservation for poor people whose monthly income is less than Rs.500.
LPY:One who cannot afford education for his children, do you know, rights have been snatched even in the 27 per cent reservation for OBC's. Even after that we fought for reservation for scheduled castes, scheduled tribes.
PC: You are not answering my question, why don't you advocate income based reservation.
LPY: What income?
PC: So that poor people can come up in life become doctors, advocates, judge.
LPY: Poor people who cannot provide education to their children.
PC: When you can distribute 2 lakh crore via NREGA, then cannot you give money for fees.
LPY:Give that, where have we stopped. Creamy layer is already in force, the answer to your question is that there is creamy layer. Laloo's son, daughter will not get benefit, we are income tax payee, hence we don't get, we never claim. It should be seen in this country, people's whose rights have been snatched, that is why people are unsatisfied in this country, hence when we talk of reservation, then people raise their noses.
PC: Reservation should be there for the poor people, why caste based reservation.
LPY: What is caste based, we also talk about people who are upper caste but poor. Bring an amendment in the constitution.
PC: In the name of reservation, till now women's reservation has not become a reality. Even in that there have been quarrels that whether there should be reservation for backward, others in women's reservation bill. In the same way there were quarrels regarding Lokpal bill.
LPY: No, did anybody oppose, did Anna Hazareji oppose, even people who opposed said that you can do (reservations)
PC: Yesterday they quarrel that Rajniti Prasad got into
LPY:Arre... Rajniti Prasad, if i would have been there, i would have caused more chaos, i would have stopped everybody and demanded to debate and take a decision on the issue of reservation. You said something else there, passed something else there, how did it change after coming here, how did it change. BJP and Congress are together, in every issue they are together.
PC: You have four or five people. (In the house)
LPY: We have only four people.
PC: You and your few people in Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha together shook up the politics of this country, people say that because of you
LPY: Did not shake up or stirred, some people talk, some shut up. Now if it a right thing, we talk about it and the nation stands with us. Is there any answer why the reservation stance changed overnight, so MP's of our party who went, in the lobby, protested and was angry, on the issues facing Muslims, scheduled castes, scheduled tribes.
PC: After that, Narayanswamy cleared that this (reservations) are there in the bill already.
LPY: This Narayanswamy, why trust can one have in him.
PC: Didn't the Prime Minister gave you assurance.
LPY: If Narayanswamy could be trusted, even there regarding the issue of Trinamool Congress Mamta Banerjee said, that in a federal set up, one has to ask the states in a federal set up. Then why did not the amend it, (the bill), how can we believe them then. You are making a law, include the provisions in it.
PC:People say that in the government, people speak behind one's back, do you think there are people in the government, that can be depended upon.
LPY: First you understand that, in the Lok Sabha, the Congress gathered majority.
PC: But you are with the Congress, ideologically you are with the Congress.
LPY: We walked out, saying that your bill is very weak, and i am going back.
PC: You did not oppose.
LPY: What is this then,what were we four people doing?
PC: I am asking you that Prime Minister, Pranab Mukherjee and other big minister call upon you and talk to you
LPY: I don't do any deal, if i go anywhere, i say the right thing.
PC: Do you have trust on this governrment
LPY: If Congress is adressing the right question, and we are not going to fall in the Congress-BJP trap. Congress party or any other will not listen to us, then will i listen?. Regarding talks, everybody talks to each other.
PC:Can it be said about this government that they do what they say.
LPY: There are not people of one kind in this government, they were in UPA (1), in UPA (1) people were consulted, allies were asked (before taking any major decisions),here nobody asks anybody.
PC: But you are supporting the government.
LPY: We are supporting the government to stop BJP.
PC: You are giving outside support to the government
LPY:We are supporting the government from outside on the condition that they will do right work, in the interest of the poor people of the country and reservation issue.
PC: Lalooji, tell me whether the government is doing right or wrong work.
LPY: UPA 1 was a government that used to do work, in UPA 2, no work is happening, they are stuck in various confusions.
PC: Is it a failed government
LPY: The government doesn't work, it is failed (government)
PC: Government has failed
LPY: It is failed government.
PC: on whom you will fix the responsibility for this, because you are saying it is a failed government.
LPY: UPA 1 was a government in which the people were consulted.
PC: of which you were part (UPA1)
LPY: I was a part of (UPA 1), even in two there are allies, from whom no suggestions are sought.
PC: Hence you are saying that the government has failed.
LPY: It certainly has failed, has the government been able to do any work? the government has not been able to do any work. The work of UPA 1, including the various work components of Bharat Nirman, Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan, MNREGA, roads, hospitals, electricity, on that basis this government is running.
PC: The number of people staying below the poverty line has increased, this you would know Lalooji
LPY: It has increased, a survey should be done, with honesty.
PC: Now who would you blame for the failed government.
LPY: On those who are running the government.
PC: Prime Minister or somebody else
LPY: No, i wont comment on their internal issue.
PC: So tell if you are in support or against the government.
LPY: I staunchly oppose the wrong works done by the government, certainly, I oppose.
PC: Now what happened in the parliament yesterday, do you see it as the government's mistake, the government shied away from a vote, this happened for the first time.
LPY: Please listen what the government wants to say, from every party, people are saying five five times, time was killed, went up to 12 pm, there was pressure from the Congress party to pass it as it is,on the pretext that there is no time. Now when you passed there, (the Lokpal in the Lok Sabha), why BJP changed face here (in the Rajya Sabha) and changed its stance. Were our four people going to make any difference of passing any failing the bill.
PC: Trinamool Congress also opposed, but you are giving clean chit to them, but you are blaming the BJP time and again.
LPY: Certainly, six people from one party will speak, it takes so much time, it went upto 12 pm, who has been responsible for this.
PC: In Lok Sabha Congress later stopped the debate and allowed voting on the issue, this could be done here also (in the Rajya Sabha).
LPY: They saw that the date was changing.
PC: They could have done here also, (in the Rajya Sabha), said debate is over, and gone for a vote. Congress could have said at 10 pm, that no more debates we want a vote on this issue
LPY: Who would have let them speak there.
PC: So, why are you standing in Congress party's support. First time in history, any party shied away from vote.
LPY: No it is not question of who shied away, speaker adjourned, sine die.
PC: When Bansal (Pawan Kumar Bansal) that they dont want to debate on the issue, we will later bring an amendment, and will see after that.
LPY: That is a different amendment.
PC: After Bansal sahab said adjournment happened.
LPY: He saw that there was hot exchange from both the sides, you read the adjournment observations. You read what the speaker said, that he never saw such a situation and it seems that a battle will start hence he took decision in national interest.
PC: So you think what the government did was right?
LPY: No, the government did not have majority. Certainly, everybody knows, you know that the government did not have majority.
PC: If you were Prime Minister, and you knew that there is no majority, would you have got the proposed bill in the house.
LPY: The majority who were in opposition consisted of BJP, JDU, Left and Mamtaji on one issue,
PC: That is a big issue, the bill will be finished because of that issue.
LPY: Please listen, and we all together, including BSP, there was majority, and together with SP, there in the other house, there was majority. This majority is for counting. But there were internal issues in these parties, nobody was with each other.
PC: Opposition was divided, hence Congress could have taken benefit
LPY: Internal, hence the debate prolonged, you don't know. This is the reason for the time being prolonged, if you want to know.
PC:This was happening from both sides.
LPY: No,no,no, one was saying go for this, the other said we will not go with you, somebody else says that we will not go with the other.
PC: Congress should have taken benefit out of this.
LPY: Congress did not have majority.
PC: When they are divided among themselves, then at least Congress should have taken benefit.
LPY: I am telling you, this is an internal issue. There are upcoming elections in five states, hence for saving face, they are organizing rallies against one another, raising issues. One saying that the other has caused problems, he ran away, they ran away. Nobody wants the Lokpal bill in the present form. If it was strong, everybody would have agreed, any party internally, how much ever you try, even tomorrow some issue would be raised, the bill is still alive, it has not been rejected nor accepted in Rajya Sabha. Even if tomorrow it is discussed, they will raise the same issues.
PC: It seems no party wants the Lokpal bill.
LPY: No, nobody wants.
PC: Everybody was giving political speeches.
LPY: It was all Ram Leela, know this first. Nobody wants.
PC: Who is Ravan and Ram in this Ram Leela
LPY: No, please listen, why would anybody want (this bill)
PC: You say this was Ram Leela, no party was in its favour, then what is the meaning of bringing this bill, when Congress, BJP and you are not favour of this bill, then why this tamasha. This is fraud with the nation.
LPY: No, it is not fraud with the nation, our nation with the party, what is our line(of thinking), others line (of thinking), Babasaheb made the constitution, the structure that he gave us, we will not allowed it to be destroyed, please understand. We don't have that much power, strength, but I will say and I speak and will keep on speaking. The constitution given by Baba, in which everybody has work allotment. What CBI should do, what court should do, what CVC should do, now in a hurry, without thinking you also kept the army in the Lokpal's ambit, to destroy it. And to keep CBI under Lokpal's ambit,
PC: You are time and again hinting at the BJP, now the lawyers drafted the bill Kapil Sibal, Manu Singhvi, the bill made by all these big lawyers,
LPY: Please listen to what i am saying, the whole political system is centralized in the Lokpal Bill, this is an attack on democracy,
PC: It is an attack on democracy
LPY: Certainly, our base (of democracy) is being attacked. I am saying the right thing, that is why people are saying that Laloo Yadav is opposing.
PC: You are saying that this bill should be thrown away in the dust bin.
LPY: Say any word, but we are cutting the branch on which we are sitting.
PC: Tell me straight, should this bill be thrown in the dust bin
LPY: This bill, for eradicating corruption from all places, has been drafted in a hurry, and do you think you can eradicate corruption like this.
PC: Lalooji, you are extending support in such a logical way, do you feel, you this government shouldn't take you in ministers position.
LPY: See, again, you spoken on a small thing,
PC: Government is failing, people like you should be there
LPY: See, Laloo is not standing because of any minister's blessings, it is because of his own strength. Through his own strength, not because of anybody's blessings. Minister, minister, minister, for what? We are erecting a building, destructing our institutions.
PC: What is you aim
LPY: Our aim is that if there is corruption, then takeover wealth of all people in this country, take over all bank accounts.
Monday, January 2, 2012
Laloo Prasad Yadav on Teekhi Baat/ December 31, 2012/IBN7
In an exclusive interview on 'Teekhi Baat' for IBN 7, Rashtriya Janta Dal chief Laloo Prasad Yadav answers some tough questions, and charges against him on the issue on Lokpal bill, his feelings on status of UPA 2, reservations in Lokpal and judiciary,Congress and BJP, his views on Rajniti Prasad's actions. Excerpts: