PC: These days you do a lot of ‘meethi baat’.
UB: It’s fine.
PC: You have liked this transformation of nature that you have had to undergo.
UB: No, I am the same; the lens with which you view me has changed.
PC: There were so many yatra’s in UP, now your yatra has been announced by the president. From 1st December you are going to embark on a big yatra.
UB: That is an abhiyan not a yatra.
PC: Is it not yatra, what is the abhiyan about.
UB: Abhiyan is Uttar Pradesh bachao, Bha ja pa la. Under this abhiyan, there will be 50 gatherings in each vidhan sabha constituency. And this abhiyan will last for 15 days in which close to 200 leaders will participate, these will include leaders from the centre and the state.
PC: You will lead.
UB: You can say I will co ordinate.
PC: The president announced your name.
UB: He said coordinator.
PC: Then what did other people do earlier, what was that, what Advaniji, Rajnathji did.
UB: That was a yatra.
PC: What is the difference between abhiyan and yatra.
UB: The difference is that when one man leads it is a yatra, but in an abhiyaan close to 200 are participating. They will go to different places in one day. Like on 1 December, Nitinji would be there, shahiji, I will be there and other 200 leaders from state and centre would go to 400 vidhan sabha constituencies.
PC: Where will you start this from?
UB: Today evening there is a meeting regarding the same.
PC: It is not decided as yet.
UB: It will be decided tonight.
PC: For the yatra your slogan is UP bachao ba ja pa lao.
UB: Uttar Pradesh bachao .
PC: It is the same. But who will save BJP; it is all over the place. First BJP has to be saved, then UP will be saved.
UB: I am concerned with my own work, not other talk and issues.
PC: Your responsibility is not to save BJP.
UB: That is a different subject. But now my responsibility is to get UP rid of maladministration, to contribute in a way which leads to the formation of BJP government in the state. But the issues that you want to take me to Prabhu, I don’t want to go into those issues.
PC: You said BJP saving is not your responsibility.
UB: I never said that, I said that I am not connected with that issue.
PC: What is your work in Uttar Pradesh, your responsibility?
UB: I have been given work, like the co ordination of the abhiyan, also to build connections till the district and the vidhan sabha constituency level. To focus on corruption and criminalisation which are the two important issues that UP is facing. I have been born in Madhya Pradesh, was an elected member of parliament five times and also the chief minister. But from the time of Ramjanmabhoomi andolan, for me Uttar Pradesh has been the same as Madhya Pradesh. I have such good and deep relations with the party workers; hence I have no problem in working in Uttar Pradesh, keeping this in mind, Nitin Gadkari gave me this assignment.
PC: Because of Ram Janmabhoomi movement, Uma Bharati’s name came up to the national level.
UB: When I took part in Ram Janmabhoomi movement, I was a second time parliamentarian.
PC: Hence Uttar Pradesh is not a new place for you, it is your karmabhoomi now
UB: Yes, for me it is the same as Madhya Pradesh.
PC: Earlier, your karma bhoomi was Madhya Pradesh.
UB: My karma bhoomi is the whole world. Not only India, but the whole world, wherever I feel one has to work humanity; I will go even to Africa.
PC: You are the first Chief Minister of BJP, who is also working as a ordinary party worker now.
UB: Let me be anybody, I have never considered myself more than an ordinary party worker. The reason for the same is that there is a glamour associated with politics which has its conveniences and fame, that I have been experiencing from the time I was six years old. Hence I have no attraction towards conveniences and fame. Because I had the two already, when I came into politics, hence my mind is that of a karyakarta and I work with same fervour.
PC: The thing is that such people made you ordinary party worker who themselves have no following.
UB: I think contrary. For the first time it may have so happened in the history of Indian politics, that for a person who has been a leader in one state, he has been accepted as a leader in other state too. People and karyakartas of Uttar Pradesh accepted me as I am from Uttar Pradesh.
PC: Some say that you are an intruder in Uttar Pradesh.
UB: It is something else to go to another state to fight lok sabha elections. It is a different thing to be nominated in the Rajya Sabha. Like the way I worked in Madhya Pradesh, in the same way with a homely feeling I am working in Uttar Pradesh. May be I am alone who has been able to do this.
PC: But people are appointed as in charge of other states too. Like in a way you also garnered fame from Uttar Pradesh.
UB: For me there is no difference between Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh.
PC: So, in a way it is second home for you.
UB: It is two parts of one home.
PC: But let me ask you the same thing again, suddenly you were made karyakarta again.
UB: No, I was not made karyakarta, I was always a karyakarta and my feet were on the ground.
PC: But other people who left the party, or were expelled, they were welcomed back with great respect and fanfare. Like Kalyan Singh was made election incharge, when Uma Bharti came from the medium of sangh, hindutva, does the party and its leaders have any problem in giving Uma Bharti a post.
UB: There is no importance of these things for me. Let me tell you one thing, I went to meet president Prathiba Patil on the issue of Ganga, when I reached the gate and walked towards Rashtrapatii Bhavan, there my bodyguards tried to tell officials there that Uma Bharati has come, the body guards there said that there is no need of introducing Uma Bharati, hence I don’t need any designation and fame.
PC: Your clothes explain who you are.
UB: May be, due to the grace of god, the place that I have in the hearts of the people is important.
PC: This is your large heartedness,
UB: What large heartedness.
PC: All the other people who were brought back into the party, they were given some official position.
UB: I have no importance to such things Prabhu.
PC: Don’t they fear you.
PC: Because you have come back, you went to UP, if you win elections, people will give you credit for the same without asking. That is why you are being given no post, hence everybody would seem equal.
UB: I am not someone to fear, I am lovable, and people may love me.
PC: From your nature, not talking about your face.
UB: Not talking about my dangerous face, beautiful people are also dangerous. There is dangerous mind and thinking, there is nothing in my mind to the effect that I want to threaten anyone.
PC: By heart you are a rebel.
UB: This is the way media projects it. Because when I participated in Ram Janmabhoomi movement, people with leftist thought were holding sway over the media. Since they could not find anything against me, they drew this analogy.
PC: But when you start this yatra, which will be your party’s fifth or sixth one.
UB: This is not a yatra I am telling you. Gatherings will be held at various places. There will be no movement in this, we will go and hold gatherings, just that it will happen with my co ordination.
PC: If your name is associated with yatra, then you are equal to Kalraji, Advaniji, Rajnathji, hence the name of your yatra is changed to something else.
UB: But this is the work I like, I have asked for it. I spoke to Nitin Gadkariji. There are two steps leading to an elections, one is canvassing and abhiyan and the second is other administration which is related till the polling booth. Hence I requested him for the former, and even worked in Rajnathji and Kalrajji’s yatra. I was also asked to initiate a yatra, but I said that I would like to participate in these two yatras.
PC: That means you are doing more of organisational work.
UB: I said that I will go for both yatras because I would like to go to both areas. One is with Rajnathji, the other with Kalrajji, I wanted to go to both areas. Both yatras were very good, and Advaniji’s yatra was at the national level, and for three days he was in Uttar Pradesh. The experience which I got from these yatras, after which I requested Nitinji for giving me work, which he gave me.
PC: Now days decisions are taken that some people cannot work in their own states. Let me do a teekhi baat, that why can’t you go and become a karyakarta in Madhya Pradesh.
UB: I go there. There was a time in Narendra Modi’s life when he was said not to go to Gujarat. I was not told so but I myself did it. If the BJP government in Madhya Pradesh faces any difficulty because of me being there, then that should be averted. Because for the past two years, the campaign was that I am capable of disturbing Madhya Pradesh. That is why I decided. But I go there, my brother is ill, to meet him.
PC: But you don’t go for political work.
UB: In guess that in a programme journalists asked this to Nitinji. Recently, I also got an invitation from the Madhya Pradesh government to be the chief guest for a function. But I could not go.
PC: Sanjay Joshi and Uma Bharati are working outside their own state.
UB: Sanjay Joshi is from Maharashtra.
PC: But he stayed in Gujarat and built organisation there.
UB: With Narendra Modiji, one for one – two years he was told not to go to Gujarat. This case is not the same with me.
PC: Now you starting a yatra, I am saying a yatra because people think is it yatra not abhiyan.
UB: It is an abhiyan, nobody thinks It is a yatra.
PC: When Uma Bharati’s name is attached, after Kalraj Mishra, Rajnath Singh, now it is possible somebody else will campaign after you. What is Uma Bharati’s slogan there, people will say she is a paratrooper.
UB: Till now nobody has said such a thing, people said quite the contrary. Even the survey that India today did, people agreed that me going to Uttar Pradesh has benefitted BJP. Hence, it is contrary, the people, party workers and leaders there have lovingly accepted me. My village is also an important reason for this , the village that I hail from has two parts, it is on the border of UP and MP. Hence my village is half in UP and the other half in MP.
PC: Same like Jaiprakash Narayan. if you want to go to Bihar you have to go via UP.
UB: Hence, UP people did not feel that I am not from there.
PC: Since you are saying political acceptability, then there is possibility of you being political leader and chief minister there. I am not saying you want to be.
UB: This is not the issue now. The issue is that we have to form a government there. The present condition there I feel that that the people want to see our government being formed there. Now we have to set out systems rightly. Hence I requested Nitin Gadkariji, to give me work of co ordination for some time.
PC: Will you fight elections there.
UB: I will take no decision regarding me, Nitin Gadkariji will do that.
PC: But the state the organisation is in, on what issues you will win elections. Uma Bharati says that she will not contest elections. There is also no chief ministerial candidate. Plus you are pitted against Rahul Gandhi, Mayawati, Ajit Singh, Mulayam Singh Yadav, Akhilesh Yadav, but BJP has not candidate.
UB: I accept that two parties are strong there. One is SP, the other is BSP, they have got state level leaders too. But people are miffed with BSP these days, this is said by people all over UP. People consider SP, even worse than BSP. Congress has no existence there, even if Rahul Gandhi does extensive campaigns. Now he has said such a thing, which has heart the self respect of the people of UP, that people go to beg, he does not know that people go to work there as labour. There is a difference between doing labour work and begging, this understanding Rahul Gandhi does not have. UP is a place filled with nationalist people, and to say that they are beggars is absolutely wrong.
PC: But Rahul has made Mayawati and your situation difficult there, because of the impact he has on the people and the media, you have nobody in comparison.
UB: I don’t think this way, one the other had the way media focuses in Rahul Gandhi yatra, the same way focus on me. My programmes are better than his.
PC: He is a new face
UB: He is no new face, he is 40 years old and middle aged.
PC: But at 40 he is young compared to all other leaders. But Rahul Gandhi is leaving an impact there. Even you had become chief minister at age of 40-42, weren’t you middle aged then?
UB: No, congress has no influence in UP. They would not get even a polling agent. They have so many problems; they have taken the support of Mayawati and are also troubling her. I will say that the stand taken by Mamta Banerjee was good, he took a stand on inflation and fought with the government. Mayawati has given support to the central government; they are both in a strange association. Now also you will see they way Congress has trapped Mayawati, you will know how Digvijay Singh said, and ‘we have the CBI’. This is Digvijay Singh’s statement. There is difference between CBI investigations and a party post holder saying that “we have CBI”. CBI is with the government and not with the general secretary of any party. Digvijay Singh, one the issue of Batla house, or Karkare, Mayawati, he has tried to prove that the central agencies work on his directions.
PC: I feel that elections are not between Mayawati and Akhilesh Yadav but Uma Bharati and Digvijay Singh.
UB: I can say that destiny is such that, when he was chief minister in Madhya Pradesh, I went there and defeated him. After which he was incharge of Bihar, where I was there to defeat Laloo and Rabri. Now, he has come here.
PC: In UP there will be conflict on communalism and secularism. Digvijay Singh is sec
ularist and you are communal, this message will be spread by the people.
UB: No, I don’t believe that Digvijay Singh is secular, and I am communal. One who is Hindu and hindutvavadi is secular. One who is against hindutva cannot be secular, he will be communal. Now, it is a different issue that you don’t consider muslim leaning as communal, but say hindutva is communal. I find him a muslim leaning person.
PC: He is secular.
UB: Muslim leaning and appeasing does not mean secular. That is communalism.
PC: You say that Mandir vahi banega, your program is mandir, and your party president Nitin Gadkari said that this is not your poll agenda the next day.
UB: Both said the right thing. We said that where Ram Lalla is there we want to see a mandir there. And it is also true that in the UP elections, criminalisation and corruption are the major issues. Hence, both issues what Nitinji and I said are correct.
PC: What will happen if you become chief minister by chance, same that happened during Kalyan Singh’s time.
UB: The land earmarked by the centre for building a temple, that land should be given to Ram Janmabhoomi Nyas.
PC: But you will abide by the Supreme Court judgement.
UB: The judgement which came and was accepted by the Muslims and Hindus with grace, it paved that way that the temple will be built there.
PC: But that is on your agenda.
UB: That is the agenda of the whole country, all Hindus.
PC: But like there is no agreement on who will be chief minister, there is no agreement on who will be prime minister, you said Advaniji can become, somebody else also said he can become. Was Advaniji successful in his yatra, at many places yatra did not go too well? Did he become weak, or is he still the prime ministerial candidate.
UB: In my opinion, of all the yatras I saw, Advaniji’s was the best.
PC: He is a strong candidate for prime minister’s post.
UB: See I will tell you the successes of Advaniji’s yatra. In Anna Hazare’s movement, all political parties and leaders were put on one side, and made to look as villains. And there was a mood that only people running NGOs can be against corruption and nobody else. There was a need to fight corruption on a political agenda, because when that step will come, the party who will fight corruption on political agenda will have the onus of proving themselves clean first. But the issues which Advaniji took up he said that our leaders should declare that they have no bank accounts abroad.
PC: But according to you is Advaniji a prime ministerial candidate.
UB: What has happened to you Prabhuji, what has happened to the media of this country? Why are you raising questions against our party regarding prime minister and chief minister somewhere, I am speaking on the issue of Advaniji’s yatra.
PC: Now are you missing Atalji’s absence.
UB: Now, I will focus on what Advaniji said that those who will speak against corruption, first will have to show that their party is clean. Advaniji dared and got the party to your scrutiny. Media now should watch BJP.
PC: You started to imitate Anna Hazare
UB: Black money and corruption are our election issues of 2009.
PC: But you lost the elections, the people did not accept what you said.
UB: Losing elections does not mean that the issue is lost.
PC: Now you don’t want to talk about the prime minister.
UB: This is a non issue.
PC: This is a non issue for your party
UB: It is a non issue for me.
PC: For you PM and CM is non issue.
UB: Yes, they are non issues.
PC: Ram mandir and corruption are issues for you.
UB: corruption, criminalisation, ram mandir are issues for me, not who will become CM and PM
PC: Let see how your UP yatra goes
PC: Thank you for coming to our studio.
UB: Thank you Prabhuji !